by helpful, Thursday May 15, 2003 at 02:19 AM:-)
What they are trying to hide
by spinifex, Thursday May 15, 2003 at 10:30 AM
This is what the Animation
Factory is trying to hide in Iraq:
"Over 2,200 bodies exhumed from mass grave in Iraq..."
"Iraqis uncover thousands in mass graves..."
The "peace" movement has failed to save the regime, now the "left" wants to make you watch cartoons instead.
If that doesn't work, they will pose as Iraq's "liberators".
In between cappucinos and bongo recitals, that is
The LEFT did not create Saddam
by mick, Thursday May 15, 2003 at 11:32 AM
The USA did.
YOUR hands are bloody.
See: The USA created Saddam
and let's not forget...
Aceh Burma Cambodia Afghanistan Colombia Vietnam Iraq Nicaragua El Salvador West Papua East Timor etc...
Even sweat shops in China.
YOU have no credibility - YOU killed those people in Iraq and elsewhere.
Still doing it. Be a hell of a lot more innocent civilians killed in Iraq without the outrage of the Left.
Stupid pinkos cannot lie straight
by spinifex, Thursday May 15, 2003 at 12:35 PM
"The LEFT did not create
Saddam.... The USA did. "
Iraq was principally a Soviet ally even right up to the start of the 1991 Desert Storm war
Soviet President Mikhail S. Gorbachev even acted as a peace broker between his allies in Iraq and the US-led coalition of 1991.
Before that war began, Soviet technicians and advisers were a common sight in Iraq.
The Iraqi military is largely equipped with Soviet tanks, bombers and artillery pieces.
Iraq's Scuds were Soviet-made and delivered to Iraq in the mid-1980s.
Read this ordinary Boston Globe newspaper article from 1991.
Took a split second to find this on Google.
Nothing remarkable about it - except it hasn't been re-written by some stupid marxist embarassed about boot licking Saddam for "peace".
A few weeks ago you were all praying for an Iraqi victory.
Regurgitating 'Comical' Ali's press statements about "certain" Coalition defeat.
It will be another Vietnam. Iraqi's will lay down their lives for Saddam.
Marines will be cut to pieces in street-by-street, hand to hand fighting. Bagdhad will be a slaughterhouse.
Got very excited about those "Russian intelleigence reports" as I recall
'Human shields' were giving interviews to western media.
"Iraqis don't want to be liberated," as I recall.
Now their digging up the corpses of thousands of Saddam's victims.
Thousands of 'em Mick.
The bullets that put them there were the "products of socialist labour", Mick.
Saddam was praised right here at IndyMedia for his "quasi socialist" state and his excellent "welfare services".
His great victory was certain.
Don't bite ya tongue of spinny!
by Cereal Parsonist, Thursday May 15, 2003 at 01:02 PM
I would hate for ya tongue to become a piece of collateral damage as ya blow an endless tirade of rasberries! :)
I like this one...
>>A few weeks ago you were all praying for an Iraqi victory.
Were we? In ya dreams maybe. Or in your hallucinations - it is magic mushy season after all. Spinnys trippin' out!
You should at least wait for the weekend for that sort of activity gorgeous!
What will he spin next?
I'm not the Left
by mick, Thursday May 15, 2003 at 02:00 PM
You ignored my points - and
accusing Indy of being pro-Stalinist (and pro-Saddam) is not something the Socialists
I don't know any Socialists who supported Saddam or revere Stalinism.
And what has that got to do with me anyway?
5000 Republicans marched against the war in Washington, led by a Senator. That make me a Republican? Talk about Aceh and West Papua.
Maybe this will help... Extracts
Quite a prophetic piece. Re: American training of Afghans, Indonesia, Colombia etc...
U.S. Responsibility for the
SLAUGHTERS IN INDONESIA
and EAST TIMOR
© 1998 by Peter Dale Scott, Ph.D. For three decades, with long interludes to preserve my sanity, I have studied U.S. involvement (along with other countries like Britain and Japan) in the great Indonesian massacre of 1965. Only in the last few years have I come to focus on what I now think was the defining paradigm for what happened: a psywar operation.
What opened my eyes was one of the first eyewitness accounts of the slaughter. This made it clear that the corpses flooding the rivers of East Java were not just dumped their to dispose of them; they had been rigged to float, and thus terrorize those living downstream:
"Stomachs torn open. The smell was unbelievable. To make sure they didn't sink, the carcasses were deliberately tied to, or impaled on, bamboo stakes. And the departure of corpses from the Kediri region down the Brantas achieved its golden age when bodies were stacked on rafts over which the PKI banner proudly flew."6
This exploitative detail, the display of mutilated corpses, has been recurringly cited for its horror as a symptom of "unplanned brutality,"7 or "mass hysteria."8
In fact it falls well within the parameters of planned U.S. atrocities. It is in particular a signature of U.S.-trained atrocity managers in Chile, El Salvador, and today in Colombia.9
The display of corpses by arranging to float them down river was a feature of U.S. counterinsurgency in the Philippines in the 1900s, and again in the 1950s.10
Corpses were also displayed by the Indonesians in East Timor after 1975, as part of a genocidal campaign supported and supplied by the United States. I will have more to say about the display of corpses, not because this atrocious detail is intrinsically worse than others, but because it is a forensic clue of techniques that have been transmitted through instruction.
We saw in the 1980s how the U.S.-backed atrocities in El Salvador and Nicaragua were terminated after Congressional action, especially after the long-denied massacre at El Mozote in 1981 (by a U.S.-trained battalion) was finally acknowledged.
The delayed exposure of atrocities in East Timor has led to recent U.S. pressures on Indonesia, in the form of withholding military aid; and there are signs that Indonesia may soon respond in some way to the increasing pressures on it from the rest of the world.
This paper will point to a fourth: U.S. responsibility for teaching the Indonesian Army the psychological warfare (psywar) techniques of terror, which were then practiced in the great massacre of 1965, and again in East Timor a decade later. I shall argue that, whereas massacre is unfortunately only too common a human experience, massacre as a psywar technique of terror has a narrower history.
Although we shall see precedents from the Mongols and Tatars, and later Japan during World War II, the chief country of transmission would appear to be the United States.
These same practices had previously been practiced by CT (Counterterror) teams in Vietnam, also recruited by the military from civilians. They would leave a Viet Cong head on a pole as they left a village, or a mutilated body, or ears nailed to houses ("The idea was that fear was a good weapon").79
The CIA advisor who introduced this counterterror to South Vietnam, Ralph Johnson, "formulated his theory in the Philippines in the mid-1950's and as a police advisor in Indonesia in 1957 and 1958, prior to the failed Sukarno [sic] coup."80 I might add parenthetically that in 1997 one can see bodies and decapitated heads in the streets of rural Colombia, another country where U.S. psywar training has been prominent.81
And for a decade some of the most celebrated horror photographs from East Timor have been of Indonesian troops posing with decapitated heads.82
These American (and Australian) military-trained soldiers are using American and English arms against civilians right now.
I know Australian troops/Police are not too proud of their connection with the Indonesian military.
You'll note we prefer American (academic) resources. I'm not anti-(N) Americans - but I do not support their murderous industrial/military complex. In common with many (N) Americans.
Repeat: The USA created Saddam.
N. America is supporting Indonesian atrocities in Aceh and West Papua - right NOW.
Thought you were anti-Terrorism.
The only military action I condone is self defence.
The 'Left' I belong to has nothing in common with Authoritarianism.
Hope this helps.
add your comments
Nick's point again explained simply
by spinifex, Thursday May 15, 2003 at 03:31 PM
Your point, Nick, and let
me quote you, was that;
"The LEFT did not create Saddam...The USA did." My point was that that statement is complete nonsense - and that Iraq was principally a Soviet ally even right up to the start of the 1991 Desert Storm war.
You remember the Soviet Union, Nick?
The Union of Soviet Socialist Republics?
You know - backed various left wing political groups in Australia and other parts of the world for, oh, sixty or seventy years or something?
And lefties loved it to bits until it fell to pieces on them. Now they love Cuba, the Soviet Union's really good friend, instead.
Nothing to do with the USA Nick. Different country
Then - oddly enough - when I pointed that out you got all defensive.
Not the abacus again?
by spentfx, Thursday May 15, 2003 at 05:25 PM
A few thousand graves, almost
as many as were killed in the recent invasion.
Didn't they say Saddam had killed up to a million? I suppose the graves went the same way as the WMDs.
No fridge magnets...
by mick, Friday May 16, 2003 at 01:30 AM
... for Indonesian military
terrorism. "Nothing to do with the USA Nick. Different country."
Nick? Anyway - read the article.
"... but in the past Saddam was seen by U.S. intelligence services as a bulwark of anti-communism and they used him as their instrument for more than 40 years, according to former U.S. intelligence diplomats and intelligence officials.
The CIA/Defense Intelligence Agency relation with Saddam intensified after the start of the Iran-Iraq war in September of 1980. During the war, the CIA regularly sent a team to Saddam to deliver battlefield intelligence obtained from Saudi AWACS surveillance aircraft to aid the effectiveness of Iraq's armed forces, according to a former DIA official, part of a U.S. interagency intelligence group.
This former official said that he personally had signed off on a document that shared U.S. satellite intelligence with both Iraq and Iran in an attempt to produce a military stalemate. "When I signed it, I thought I was losing my mind," the former official told UPI."
------------------------------------- The USA.
Same country that supplied and trained the genocidal Indonesian military.
In common with England and Australia.
BTW - Saddam killed all the Communists in Iraq.
A mainstream article on the Aceh - West Papua situation.
add your comments
What's a few thousand in a mass grave, anyway?
by spinifex, Friday May 16, 2003 at 09:16 AM
What a FANTASTIC response!
"A few thousand graves, almost as many as were killed in the recent invasion..."
Let's do the right thing and belittle Saddam's victims! Just trivialise the whole Regime!
Well, okay - a few thousand victims here, and a few thousand victims there, and pretty soon it does add up to real numbers, hey buddy!?
Can you imagine the JOY here at IndyMedia Melbourne if someone suddenly uncovered a few thousand bodies in a mass grave in Israel?
You know, a few thousand of Sharon's political opponents buried outside Tel Aviv?
You would WET yourselves with delight!! There would be parties in every cafe and yoga centre from Brunswick to Kew!!
For a start, you'd be able to stop going on and on and on and on and about arms-smuggler Rachel Corrie, the "activist" who shoved her head under a bulldozer at that building demolition site in Gaza.
I just Googled "Rachel Corrie" and got 14,900 hits and it took 0.16 seconds.
Bet there's not 14,900 hits for anyone killed by the "quasi socialist" ally of the former Union of Soviet Socialsst Republics, Saddam Hussein!
Bet there weren't any human shields in the execution pits, chained to the victims!
There talking 15,000 in one grave site alone!!
Even the conservative 3000 estimate is way bigger than any recent "peace" demonstartions. Would make quite an impressive crowd.
Won't be another mention of those mass grave if our IndyMedia vanguard of the revolution has any say in it.
But if someone so much as gets a nose bleed in Gaza, you'll all be ranting and raving and frothing at the mouth.
spentfx - your comment should be put on a billboard outside Trades Hall just to remind everyone what socialism was REALLY about.
I mean, these days, pinkos are mostly just the butt of gentle ridicule.
But back in the old days when they mattered, "a few thousand victims here and a few thousand victims there" was more or less 'norme des rigeur' for socialist states, hey?
Still, there are a few places left where your type of socialism is still an applied art.
Like Cuba (where they execute boat people) or China (where they are now executing SARS victims) or North Korea (where they execute anyone they can get their hand on).
What's a few thousand victims of the regime?
Well, for a start, it contrasts markedly with the hundreds of thousands and millions you said WOULD die if Iraq was liberated.
I suppose that's true
Then there's "redd herring" Mick "... for Indonesian military terrorism. ..." "Nothing to do with the USA Nick. Different country."
Mick. Iraq is nowhere near Indonesia.
Wonderful, wonderful stuff indeed.
Definitely saving this to a folder for future reference!!
add your comments
by Cereal Parsonist, Friday May 16, 2003 at 10:26 AM
>>Mick. Iraq is nowhere near Indonesia.
ROFL! Onya spinny, you're the best troll we've had in ages - maybe the best ever! That statement alone shows your complete ignorance of the global nature of politics.
Please keep it up! You're funnier than any left wing comedian that I know of!
What amusing distractions will he throw at us next?
add your comments
love ya work
by Nick, Friday May 16, 2003 at 11:10 AM
"Nick's point again
Somebody loves me.
Chris has got me on his mind, because I can match his arrogance, his knowledge, and his apparent intellect. LOL
(All great qualities Chris, when you use them properly)
Change your style/syntax under spinifex,
So cause and effect, so the left supported the USSR.
Valid point, I suppose.
Mick has valid points also.
Do you support America, and American values? Indochina, Chile ETC ETC, fuck, lets not go over this again, I don't know anyone who supports ANY atrocities committed in the name of Saddam or Bush.
The problem is atrocities being turned into liberation through propaganda. The communist USSR deceived the utopian-minded people for years.
Last time I checked Australia was part socialist; after all we have a welfare state.
Let us support ourselves; let us support democracy and our own concepts of ethics.
add your comments
by spinifex, Friday May 16, 2003 at 11:56 AM
"Let us support ourselves;
let us support democracy and our own concepts of ethics."
add your comments
by Cereal Parsonist, Friday May 16, 2003 at 12:39 PM
Oh that's great! (Tears poring from eyes :)
Spinny's denying he's Chris Parsons!
Even though both are from Sydney and have a very similar posting style! Gotta love the gaul!
What will he deny next?
add your comments
You crack me up spinifex
by bkmc, Friday May 16, 2003 at 02:51 PM
First off you tell us that
collateral damage (civilians dead) in Iraq is trivial and OK because Bad Saddam
would have killed millions more and had WMDs (we're still waiting for the yanks
to plant them).
But then you start wailing and self flagellating ("Let's do the right thing and belittle Saddam's victims! Just trivialise the whole Regime! ") when someone points out the mass graves of Saddams victims over a decade or more probably represent less people than died as result of the invasion to "liberate" them.
When's your next gig funny man?
add your comments
Your nervous laughter
by spinifex, Friday May 16, 2003 at 05:28 PM
What bkmc is trying to hide;
"....when someone points out the mass graves of Saddams victims over a decade or more probably represent less people than died as result of the invasion to "liberate" them. ..."
Firstly, the mass graves uncovered in the last few days do not represent victims of "over a decade or more" of the regime.
Over the last two weeks, several mass graves sites have been uncovered.
One of the mass graves itself (outside Bagdhad) is over a decade old - and seems to represent a few days work for the regime in 1991 after the failed uprising of that year.
Another such mast grave west of al-Zubayr near Basra dates back to the crackdown following a Shia uprising in March 1999.
Each of the sites represent a few days work for the regime.
Human Rights Watch estimates at least 290,000 people are missing in Iraq, and the answer to their whereabouts likely lies in these graves.
Nothing like 290,000 people died in the liberation of Iraq (which you opposed)
That is what you want to hide.
Hence your nervous laughter and attempts to make light of these murders.
Your frustrated warmongering
by Cereal Parsonist, Friday May 16, 2003 at 09:21 PM
Gotta LOVE this guy! All
that sneering and intellectual tongue poking and teasing and laughing at lefties,
and yet its obvious that he takes himself sooooo seriously!
>>What bkmc is trying to hide;
Ooohh booga booga! "TRYING TO HIDE"!!!!! Booga booga! Big scarwy tewwowists an' all that. Hey spinny - don't ya realise that bkmc, myself, Mick, Nick and nearly everyone else at Melbourne Indymedia is part of the big nasty Leftist-Pinko-Communist-Pan Arabistical-Saddamite conspiracy to undermine Western righteousness with Middle Eastern bad breath? You didn't? Can't blame ya for that 'cos it's not actually true! Just thought you might need another lie for one of ya next acts :)
>>One of the mass graves itself (outside Bagdhad) is over a decade old - and seems to represent a few days work for the regime in 1991 after the failed uprising of that year.
Oooh - you mean the uprising the US encouraged and then allowed to be crushed?
>>Another such mast grave west of al-Zubayr near Basra dates back to the crackdown following a Shia uprising in March 1999.
Mmmm. All those no fly zones, all those nearly daily bombings and your favourite football team still couldn't kick their righteous goal! Oh dear oh dear.
Get a clue babe - Saddam Hussein was a DICTATOR. Perhaps you didn't realise this? Perhaps you don't realise that dictators do horrible things like that - even nice US sponsored ones like Saddam. But that's no excuse to get all self righteous and pretend you're on the side of 'good'.
<SARCASM> Of course, we all know how much spinny sincerely cares about ordinary Iraqis, and ordinary Israelis for that matter. </SARCASM>
I hear no nervous laughter here spinny. I think I might just be hearing some nervous biting of fingernails, and frustrated headbutting of a monitor.
Who's willing to bet that if Iranian backed Islamists come to power in Iraq, and the US is 'forced to withdraw', spinny will place the blame for the situation on 'pathetic left wing appeasing Indymedia contributors' ?
What strawman will he tear apart next?
add your comments
by Rummy, Saturday May 17, 2003 at 11:57 AM
rumsfeld_and_saddam.jpg, image/jpeg, 220x168
I appretiate your support.
by Rummy, Saturday May 17, 2003 at 11:59 AM
rumsfeld_and_saddam.jpgbm5pvb.jpg, image/jpeg, 220x168
I appretiate the support.
Melbourne Indymedia is a website produced by grassroots media makers offering non-corporate coverage of struggles, actions and celebrations. Everyone is a witness. Everyone is a journalist.
N©: Melbourne IndyMedia. All material is free for non-profit reuse unless otherwise noted by the author. All opinions are those of the author. The Melbourne Indymedia collective doesn't necessarily agree
with them. This is the proof?
by Ghost Ship, Saturday May 17, 2003 at 08:16 PM
I have a picture of Yasser Arafat shaking hands with Menachim Begin, and there's a famous one of Neville Chamberlain Shaking hands with Hitler.
If this stupid photo is the best you can do, now wonder Spinny talks to you like you're a retarded fool.De tijd?
Iraqi - 05.05.2003 02:28
En wat is nu de boodschap?
"De tijd staat aan de kant van het verzet".
Verzet tegen de martelpraktijken van Saddam?
Of verzet tegen het verplichte lidmaatschap van de Baath-partij?
Verzet tegen het vergassen van tienduizenden mensen in 1988?
Ik bedoel; waar verzet je je eigenlijk tegen?
Laten we nou maar blij zijn dat de Amerikanen dit land in 3 weken tijd hebben opgerold.Not very good is it
by son of IDN Sidney 8:45am Thu May 15 '03 comment#30521